Photo Credit: Said Khatib / AFP – Getty Images
The Trump administration held a ceremony today in Jerusalem to mark the move of the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to the ancient city. Unsurprisingly, a mass swarm of protestors charged the border fence that separates Gaza and Israel, under the direction of Hamas, the terrorist organization that’s governed the area since its violent takeover from the Palestinian Authority in 2007.
Israel responded as you might expect any country whose borders were under siege to, by shooting the attackers, killing 58 and wounding over a thousand. Multiple warnings were given days ahead of the shootings and it’s difficult to believe the border rushers didn’t know exactly what they would face.
Predictably, the usual suspects within the UN and Western press are blaming Israel, calling on them to “steady their response” and comparing Trump’s embassy move to a lit match that blew up the powder keg.
Don’t fall for this. I’m sorry that dozens of Palestinians were killed today and for the suffering their loved ones will go through The blame for those deaths lies directly with Hamas and other terrorist groups though, who count on human sacrifices to garner sympathy for their cause and paint Israel as the bad guy. As Gaza implodes from within, Hamas needs something to shift the blame off its miserably inept and corrupt leadership.
From Jim Geraghty’s, When Will the Palestinians Start Holding Hamas Accountable?
“Yet Hamas is desperate. The situation in Gaza has become increasingly intolerable. Unemployment is widespread and chronic. Hunger is rampant. Water is undrinkable. Electricity is available for only two to four hours per day. Sewage treatment plants have failed, so the once-beautiful Mediterranean coast is now a repository of human waste. And there’s still no way in or out of the territory for almost all of Gaza’s close to 2 million people.”
Palestinians wanting to avoid getting shot by Israeli Defense Forces need to stop attacking the border, plain and simple. A time out on the car bombs and knife attacks against Israeli citizens would be wise too.
If the belly gazers at the UN, NY Times, etc… truly cared about the Palestinian people, they would be calling for this too. They don’t though, because without Israel and now Trump to blame Middle East violence on, then the uncomfortable truth that eliminating Israel is the end goal for groups like Hamas would need to be faced.
Peace will not happen until this is reconciled.
Freedom Through Empowerment 
Sad situation all roundd. Been going on for centuries.
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It sure is and sure has Gee. Thanks for coming by.
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Thanks for writing about this Tricia. The narrative, the propaganda just annoys me no end. Many people don’t do any research,they don’t ask hard questions, they just read a few headlines and then form their entire world view around a narrative. Many of these narratives are easily debunked,but often people have this fondness for victim narratives, for things that allow us to feel outraged over perceived injustices against the alleged persecuted.
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It annoys me to no end too IB and for some reason when it comes to anything involving Israe,l the propaganda is triple fold. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head about people being fond of feeling outraged. It’s a national past time really.
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You mean that new embassy celebration with those two evangelical allegedly religious bonzos spewing their religious intolerance that Trump selected to speak?
Back in WW2 it was a matter of routine that during heavy fighting, like depicted in the movie “Enemy At The Gates”, that Stalin made sure his soldiers were to charge ahead by assuring that any retreat would be met by death from their own machine guns waiting for them to retreat. The idea was to press ahead toward the enemy.. the Germans.. and “maybe” die in the process, or retreat and “surely” die in that process.
I don’t recall hearing of Hamas having such a concept to force their “demonstrators” to charge the Israeli fence line and be killed. This likely meant that the demonstrators were in fact demonstrating. In fact, it likely really doesn’t matter whether the crowd was organized by Hamas, Isis, Al Qaeda, or the Palestinian boy scouts. It doesn’t even matter if they all got paid (which isn’t really likely). I am sure, poor as they all seem to be, that they generally want to survive more than storming a fence line with an opposing military willing to kill you.
So.. while you and IB are lavishing in wonderful world of Trumpian denial and dismissing all those deaths as simply propaganda.. the reality is that they DID die as a result of the embassy move celebration… they likely didn’t really want to die… but they made a choice to risk being in the wrong place at the wrong time to express their objection to it all. Seems a little humbleness to the event should be in order… whether or not the embassy move is a good thing. Just dismissing it all as propaganda against Israel doesn’t appear to be overly Christian… but then again, those two Christian “clerics” who spoke weren’t all that filled with Christian brotherhood either.
But.. that’s ok.. because Trump continues to lay waste and embarrass America to the world… and he’s certainly doesn’t act Christian. At least he’s making America great again by catering to Putin and Netanyahu… Kim… Xi Jinping… et al.
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Your comments could be taken much more seriously if you’d at least learn to pretend that you read and think about a post before commenting with what you had planned to say all along anyway based on the subject alone.
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Like most RINO’s and libs, you blame everything that goes wrong on someone else. Every single person, you, me, Tricia and the other 7 billion people in the world is accountable for his/her own actions. If someone is willing to march into a dangerous situation for a “cause”, knowing the dangers ahead of time, their death is no one’s fault but their own. Staying home was an option. If you’d like to go over there and protest to show how much you hate Trump, fine, but don’t expect to come back with all your parts. Don’t mess with Israel. Exterminate me once, shame on you, exterminate me twice, shame on me. Don’t see that second time happening without a fight this time. Get serious Doug, this is the real world we live in.
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Actually, in the real world the conservatives and right wing (mostly Trump) are constantly blaming anything imaginable on Obama, the Clintons, and Hillary’s 30,00 emails. So.. we can agree that we both think the same about the “other side” regarding the blame game.
My original remarks were toward the two young ladies.. one having made the post that initiated this thread.. and the other jumping on her band wagon… who I generally respect their opinions, albeit I seldom agree with them. I was suggesting that for their personal proclamations in following Christianity that their remarks in this thread seemed to cast a shadow on their Christian ideals as it related to seeming to fluff off dead Palestinians and at the same time celebrating the new embassy location. Tricia stated that it was Hamas that apparently led all those people to their deaths like they were a bunch of lemmings going off a cliff. I stated back that event one, the new embassy location, triggered event two, the Palestinian demonstration that resulted in some being killed by the Israeli military. I in no way cast any blame.. just wondering where the Christian charity went. From what I am hearing in the media (likely the media you don’t believe other than FOX) the Palestinians were unarmed. I certainly was not there and cannot verify that… but certainly very plausible… just as it’s equally plausible the other way. But my media sources are generally credible.
But let’s set aside the mass of unarmed humanity pushing a fence line to the point that the military on the other side felt they had to defend themselves for the moment. Is Israel any more secure and safer with the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem? On thing is for damn sure… where the U.S. might have been perceived as some “honest broker” over the years between both sides… in spite of the fact that nothing ever worked between the two sides for various reasons… we are surely looking like we favor the Israelis over the Palestinians… so likely more than ever America will be brokering no peace in the region. I am wondering, exactly what was gained and what was the point that makes America great again with all this nonsense?
Oh… I don’t hate Trump… I just don’t want him as president… and.. just a suggestion, ease up on who you “assign” as some “enemy” to Israel… or pointing fingers as being anti-Semite. The world is not your personal battleground.
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I’m sorry Doug but I just can’t take anyone seriously who says that my post implied I was “fluffing off dead Palestinians.” That’s absurd and you either know this and don’t care how ridiculous you sound or don’t know this and sound doubly ridiculous.
What would you have Israel do with tens of thousands of people charging their border, many of them throwing firebombs and surely terrorists carrying weapons fo their own? Israel certainly had the right to defend its borders as does any country.
If you don’t know that Hamas exploits, manipulates and uses its citizens in their eternal quest to eliminate Israel (quite literally as human shields in many cases) and has been doing this for years, than I don’t foresee much productiveness in any conversations with you on the topic.
I suppose I can’t help but ask why don’t you care enough about the Palestinian people to tell the truth about their actions and get them to stop doing things that get their head blown off? Do you enjoy seeing them suffer? Where is your atheist charity? I’m shocked to see you fluff of their deaths so easily….
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Golly.. in one post I’ve been marked as an anti-Semite AND an atheist, all for making an observation about human beings dying at the hand of other human beings. Things are getting a bit out of hand, folks.
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You make some really dumb and unfounded charges in your comments and then complain when people call you out on them. Golly gee what a surprise.
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Yeah.. I guess you told me.
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@Doug
Hamas pays people to attack Israel. Think about what a wreck Gaza has become. In a place that poor, it doesn’t take a whole lot of money to convince some young men brought up imbibing a steady diet of Islamic propaganda that they are worth more to their family dead than alive.
What Hamas wants is a body count to justify its antisemitism. What too many in our news media want is a demonstration that Trump did something wrong, anything will do. So Hamas stages “demonstrations” and the news media dutifully reports Israel’s supposed indifference to the loss of life.
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The indifference to human life has existed throughout the region for thousands of years.. and is still going on now between wars, conflicts, ridiculous theocratic laws, and just pure plain political expediency. That’s not to suggest it does not happen elsewhere in the world.. but when you think the Middle East is some spawning ground for some major religions it just presents a strange paradox.
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@Doug
The Israelis are not indifferent to human life. Much of our news media, however, does seem to be indifferent.
Israel has two points of geographic significance.
1. It is a crossroads. Three continents intersect at that location. Water shipping is available from the Mediterranean Sea (access to the East) and the Red Sea (access to the South and the East).
2. It is near the cradle of civilization.
Civilization arose not far from Israel because the area provided people rich resources locally and ideal trade opportunities. Similarly Judaism and later Christianity arose in Israel because the area provided the ideal location from which to spread God’s Word.
What is not unique about Israel? It is as you say. Wars, conflicts, ridiculous theocratic laws, and just pure plain political expediency. It is unfortunate that even though Christianity began in Israel Muslims had great success in nearly stamping it out. Oddly, however, after thousands of years the Jews are back in Israel. Who would have predicted that? Well, those guys God inspired to write the Bible did exactly that. Such a thing is unheard of.
Scattered across much of the world, persecuted almost everywhere, Judaism should have disappeared, but it didn’t. Why not? I guess God did not want it do. It is a cinch it would have otherwise.
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I have no issue that any religion wants to spiritually assign themselves “special” or God’s fave as long as we remember history in that politically that hasn’t always fared well with folks not considered on the side of “special”. But as I remarked on an earlier reply, we can all speculate what the problems are over there, even how one might solve them, but unless one lives in that environment you don’t truly understand what it’s like as it’s inbred culturally across many divides. Again… while the U.S. has tried being an honest broker in the past… this nonsense with the embassy I fear just put us out of trust.
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@Doug
If we have modest objectives for solving other people’s problems, it is because we realize God is in charge. We don’t have all the answers, but He does. Usually all we can do is have the courage to do the right thing. That is why Trump kept his promise. Because Jerusalem is the capital Israel, that is where our embassy belongs.
Check out these two articles:
=> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/19/world/middleeast/jerusalem-us-embassy-trump.html
=> https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2017/12/06/reminder-us-presidents-have-promised-to-move-the-us-embassy-to-jerusalem-for-decades-n2418654
The people of Israel have the right to defend themselves. Does that change because some people think Allah rewards suicidal foolishness? No. Isn’t keeping our embassy out of Jerusalem rewarding suicidal foolishness? Yes. Is telling the Israelis that they should allow suicidal terrorists to kill them a solution for the problems in the Middle East. No. Is dealing with a suicidal terrorists the same way we deal with a mad dog the only practical solution? Not quite!
What’s eats up the brain of a suicidal terrorist is hateful propaganda, not a disease. Nevertheless, once a suicidal terrorist starts trying to kill people, don’t you think it is a little late to start trying to reason with him?
The best way to deal with suicidal terrorists is to get it through their heads that nobody is going to do anything different just because they are determined to get themselves killed. They are just going to be dead. Moreover, we will be hunting down the foul fiends who encourage such madness too.
Will such firmness fix all the problems in the Middle East? No, but it may make it a bit safer. That is how we get rid of organizations like ISIS.
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Good links for the history. I posted the following which has a bit more you might find interesting.. unless you caught it already above.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/24/middleeast/donald-trump-us-embassy-israel-explainer/index.html
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Forgot about that Golda Meir quote Tom, thanks for mentioning it. It sure does sum things up nicely.
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Last Friday, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Romania blocked an attempt led by France to get the entire 28-nation EU to pass a resolution condemning the U.S.’s move of its embassy to Jerusalem. Those 3 countries are reportedly also considering moving their embassies to Jerusalem. Which makes me wonder…..would Saudi Arabia also establish an embassy in Jerusalem? Saudi Arabia released a statement last Thursday supporting Israel’s retaliation on Iranian forces in Syria after those Iranian forces fired rockets at Israel the day before (on 5/9). Can you imagine the impact of Saudi Arabia (the country where Mecca is located) would go all-in to legitimizing the state of Israel by joining the U.S. in establishing an embassy in Jerusalem?
https://www.axios.com/hungary-czech-romania-block-eu-statement-against-embassy-move-jerusalem-6b85f6bb-8861-4dab-8473-e542196d1368.html
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/05/10/retaliation-israel-pounds-irans-military-assets-syria-attack/
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/04/30/saudi-prince-maybe-palestinians-shouldve-taken-deals-offered/
The locus of power in the Middle East is shifting away from the Obama-coddled Iranians, and the Obama-emboldened Palestinians and Syrians, to the Israelis, Saudis, Egyptians, and Jordanians. Perhaps even the two-faced Turks are pivoting back away from their backslide towards fundamentalism, since they had a hand in fooling those 5 ISIS leaders into entering Iraq’s territory so they could be captured alive last week. Ironically, Obama’s ignorant world view and foreign policy blunders may have hastened the emergence of a new Middle East coalition of true stability, allied against fundamental extremism and terrorism. Maybe Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize was intended to apply reverse psychology by duping him into betting on the wrong horse.
– Jeff
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Oops. One correction: It was the tiny country of Bahrain, not Saudi Arabia, that released a statement supporting Israel’s retaliation against Iranian forces.
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Oh interesting, i thought it was SA too.
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You are so right about the power shift in the ME Jeff and it’s encouraging, especially the increased openness countries like Saudi Arabia have with working with Israel to counteract Iran.
I like your reverse psychology theory on Obama’s Peace Prize but I somehow don’t think that was the case! 😉
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I missed the art about SA moving it’s embassy to Jerusalem. That would certainly be a game changer! Stupid France leading the way with bureaucratic indifference as usual. I love the country and the people, I’m part French you know. Their politicians are another story.
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Hi Tricia, I was watching this today. I have to read up on this a little more. Thanks for sharing!
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I was a little surprised that more of my friends here in blogland haven’t said more about this little worldly occurrence so I’m happy to see your post Tricia.
It doesn’t matter what Israel does, ever, as the Palestinians and all of the Muslim world will accept nothing less than an Israel that is no more.
That is a plain simple fact.
And Doug seems somewhat surprised that there would be those who “stormed the gates” as it were and were killed in the process.
And no it had nothing to do with the likes of Stalin or Hitler telling the troops to advance at all costs or be killed for not doing so…
this is just a reactionary hate that runs so very deep that the Palestinians don’t care that they will be killed because, in their minds, there is a magnificent notion of martyrdom involved. Dying for a cause…the cause in question is the “death of Isreal”
This is a deeply entrenched mindset that Palestinians who live along the borders are taught at a very early age—-‘we hate the guys on the other side.’
So whereas Doug seems to observe and think survival is paramount, I on the other hand, don’t really think they “want to survive more than they wish to rush the gates”
They hate Israel so much that they don’t think let alone care to think…’hey, if I run at a soldier who has a gun while I’m throwing rocks at him, he might just shoot me’— I don’t think that rational thought process is taking place because their hate has moved well beyond the rational thought process.
The tit for tat that has been going on between Israeli and Palestinian “neighbors” is centuries old—somewhat stupid from our perspective as in if you charge at those with guns, you’re probably going to get shot…and yet they charge anyway. So then why are we surprised at the reprisals and bombs and terror attacks?
This is an ancient no-win situation as neither side will ever be satisfied with what the other side offers.
Yet Biblically we as Christians are, in no uncertain terms, reminded we are to honor God’s chosen and that of their homeland…
“For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste.” Isaiah 60:12
God entered into a covenant with his people–He does not recant His promise.
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Thanks for your thoughtful comment Julie, you are spot on. The intense hatred the Palestinians have for the Jews is drilled in to them since birth, making them easy pawns of terrorist groups like Hamas who manipulate the people in to thinking dying for their cause is noble. That most of the so called civilized world accommodates such thinking is so upside down and I was quite glad to see President Trump upset the apple cart with the embassy move to Jerusalem. You know I’m not a big fan of his but that decision makes up for a lot.
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I have appreciated the follow-through with some of the stances he’s said he’d take — while then doing so…a bit of a rarity with our Washington clan.
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Scott Pruit???? Nevermind. I’ll just take another blood pressure pill.
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huh? Were we talking about Scott Pruitt or Palestinians and Isralies?
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You mentioned Pruit as a “good choice”. I’m still trying to digest the “let-the-Palestinians-kill-themselves-off-we-got-our-embassy-in-Jerusalem-and-Trump-is-wonderful” diatribes.
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No Doug, I didn’t mention Pruitt—don’t even know much about him. EPA or something??
So no, no mention of him. I’m not on a diatribe—I just think finally moving the Embassy, since it was voted on back in ’95 was a good move….that a president finally did what was voted on 23 years ago.
I’d have been fine had Clinton done it, Bush or Obama—but they didn’t.
And as far as Palestinians killing themselves—don’t rush at folks with guns…that makes sense to me.
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and I think you’re actually chatting with Tricia, not me– hence why I wondered where that Pruitt business came about—I didn’t mention him. Tricia did in a different conversation–
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Gotcha
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Doug I mentioned Pruitt in response to Dennis’s comment below. Like I said you really must learn to read things more carefully before commenting. Anyway, your silliness that those in favor of the US Embassy move (which a lot of Democratic politicians are by the way) our ok with the violence or that we are going on some pro Trump diatribe is just distracting and dumb.
I give you the benefit of the doubt a lot by assuming you don’t really mean this stuff and it’s just your contrarian nature to say such things but I’m kind of sick doing that. Or maybe you’re just drunk….;)
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ok
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Put down the drink Doug…;)
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This is some solid reporting here trish. ‘Just the facts ma’am,’ sgt Joe Friday would say.
Is it ok if I crack up at your ‘belly gazers?’ The warnings were given, people saw this coming, so the deaths could have been avoided. I swear people in certain zip codes have given up their intellectual rights of common sense.
Btw, if your post here was read on CNN………..heads would explode. And that is a compliment to you.
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Well thanks ColorStorm. And they are belly gazers, aren’t they? All stuffed with self importance and false indignation. You are so right about people giving up their intellectual rights of common sense! 😉
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In my opinion, this is a very clear example that “peace” comes second to political ideology.
When people are placed together in desperate situations (ex. a burning building) where interdependence for survival is required, ideology becomes less relevant. When children are raised with hatred (ex. a percentage Israelis for Hamas or a percentage of Hamas for Israelis) and placed in an environment such as an orchestra where cooperation among ALL participants is required to achieve symphonic magnificence, fear and hatred is repressed and mutual acceptance (even if short lived) becomes a reality.
We can focus on our differences or choose to recognize a better existence is possible and preferable. This philosophy applies worldwide. The reason hatred continues to interfere with progress toward peace and prosperity is the apathy and fear among a large percentage of people.
In the U.S., BIG INDUSTRY and BIG GOV’T directs our population often with agendas that result in human tragedy. Often, the risk is known, but financial gains make human sacrifices monetarily worthwhile. In general we idly sit by and accept this outcome (or worse, support these dangerous practices without OBJECTIVELY investigating the TRUTH.) Other nations, countries and territories have their “elite” leaders that determine the fate of their people because defiance is left an unchosen option. Even though we may not use our citizens as shields, we have no problem forcing families to inject their children with aluminum, mercury, formaldehyde and other harmful ingredients. We have no problem altering the DNA of our food sources while diligently attempting to legislate laws to hide these facts from consumers. We continue to expand our genetically modified food sources while other nations ban these products to protect their populations.
We have lost touch with real basic NEEDS in life. Until the masses willingly accept the value of human life and prioritize it, those in charge will continue to pursue their agendas. They require followers; it doesn’t matter whether these followers support or oppose the ideologies as long as they don’t interfere with the desired outcomes.
Although the middle east has typified this example in media coverage, this problem is worldwide. It is simply disguised in different fashions to retain the apathy and/or fear in the followers they require. People (in general) are unwilling to accept this REALITY! Hence, the promulgation of elite “leaders” and the masses refusing to hold them accountable.
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Yes indeed Jonathan, peace is way down the list of priorities, especially in the Middle East where the added tensions of religious extremism, historical ignorance and downright hatred are added jet fuel to the fire.
The only thing that will cause changes is when people hold their leaders accountable as you say. This is not likely to change anytime soon the ME.
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Also, if the liberal minded folks would pay attention, since we are speaking of common sense here. When was the last time an Israeli strapped a bomb around his waist and walked into a mosque……
……….or what Israeli math teacher lectures his kids on ‘how to kill Palestinians in ten easy steps………..’
The two cultures are as far as east is from west. The righteous tend to life, as the good book says; Israel kills when threatened; Palestinians murder for no reason other than hatred of the Jews.
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Yup, unfortunately.
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Very good blog as usual Tricia.
I listened to Nikki Haley this morning as she addressed the UN. She was spot on and laid the blame where it should be.
A sovereign nation has a right to move it’s embassy where it chooses. The move clearly does not change the city at all.
Hamas just wanted an excuse to kill more of their people to gain the sympathy vote at the UN.
The Palestinian Authority has been stealing aid money from their people for years in hopes that they will buy being poor is the fault of Israel and America. Very sad that no one calls them out on it.
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Thanks Dennis. Nikki Haley is great, Trumps best pick so far or maybe a close second to Scott Pruit.
You are so right about Hamas and the PA and it’s just disgusting really how many world leaders put a blind eye on it.
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This was good and well said, Tricia. Even if you put aside the whole Chosen by God, and God keeps covenants He makes stuff….it’s still absurd to expect any nation to allow terrorists to jump a fence and run amok with ill intent.
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Thanks Wally and so true, it’s absolutely absurd to expect that if any nation. Yet it’s Israel so…
How’s that new grandbaby? Spoiled silly I bet!
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Oh yeah she is! Getting worse daily I might add. Thanks for asking, Tricia.
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Oh….and you friend Doug, like many of the anti theists, spends a heck of a lot of time judging the quality of people’s Christianity…yet is as theologically illiterate as an infant about it. Weird.
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Weird indeed.
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Well, Brother Wally.. I’m still trying to get my head around the idea that over a hundred (so far) human demonstrators have died at the hands of other humans with guns simply because of an embassy needing to be relocated… and no one nation is any more protected, defended, or better off because of it. It was all for the visual. Seems to be the real illiteracy is failing to understand that religion is the entire crux of the dispute in the Middle East… and a result of our own divisiveness here at home is due in large part (albeit not entirely) to religious differences. In fact, speaking of lack of religious literacy, it’s less about the diversity of the difference in true religious doctrine as much as it is that people within a single religion, referencing the same holy scriptures for that religion, have so many vast interpretations, to justify every human sin imaginable to persecute another.
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Again, weird. What you just said did not respond to my comment at all. Put away the cut and paste file and actually read, Doug. You made judgments about the state of the Christianity of some fellows, yet you don’t believe a word of it, or actually understand what it even means. That is a fact unless you care to dispute either of the points that I made. Yes, Doug, you are an anti-theist, you just try to cloak it by acting like the class clown. Every single argument from you ends up at religion, as if religion went away, so would the ‘problems. Your last assertion is so absurd as to be laughable, and looks like something you extracted and pasted from the anti theist guidebook. In fact, your last sentence is patently false. Or, maybe it’s just nonsensical. It’s hard to tell.
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Apparently you deny religion’s role in contributing to man’s suffering throughout history. But that;s ok.. you can believe what you will. Anti-theist? Not really… I think religion is a requirement in man’s existence. Cloaking myself as a “class clown”? Can’t say I do that in Julie’s blog here.. but in IB’s blog.. yup. Just seems there is a fair amount of gloom and theological affirmation so I inject some levity at times.. whether it serves any purpose is not for me to judge. Ib always has the delete click available. It’smMy attempt to play on the natural hypocrisy of man… without malice.
Let’s go back to this thread…
I started this with the remark regarding simply the loss of life as a result of the rah-rah noise of the embassy move. The first event spawned the second.. and that’s a fact. All that celebration was purely Netanyahu and Trump flipping the finger at the Palestinians and any thought of a peace process (in spite of at the moment there’s likely no process at all). The whole thing.. if there had to be a move at all… could have been packaged far more differently and more effectively ( and with far less rah-rah chest-thumping… and the speeches from those two Christian clerics was appalling!).
Regarding Julie’s remarks to me… First… I know the Gaza history as well (or not as well, depends your perspective of Western literacy on the subject) as most. I am also far more aware that unless you are truly an Israeli living in Israel or a Palestinian living in the region, there is likely no real way any “outsider”.. Westerner, Asian, whatever, can fully appreciate the problem from their standpoint. Just being an extended Jew or Palestinian living somewhere else, while able to provide loyal sympathetic support, are not totally in full comprehension of the problems over there. It’s one of those “you gotta be there” problems.
Second… I don’t care if Hamas had all this planned on their calendars for years and sent out invitations in advance… the planned demonstration was still in reaction to the embassy event. We also knew in advance that people would die…. that there would be the inevitable fingerpointing of who had the guns and bombs.. who fired first… who was obligated to defend themselves… yada yada. Doesn’t matter. The first event triggered the second event. Here’s my point.. if everyone knew it was coming why did no one make even the slightest attempt to avoid it? And I ask that to both antagonists.
Third… the who-shot-first, who-threw-their-bombs-first, who-stuck-their-tongue-out-at-the-other-fist…. I might give far more credibility if Julie supplied CREDIBLE news media links that might be reporting other than opinion.. rather than some conservative opinion source. I have heard all the accusations… but is there anything other than the constant lament from the right for explaining all things “factual” as being “but it’s so obvious”?
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“Apparently you deny religion’s role in contributing to man’s suffering throughout history”
First of all, Doug, I never said any such thing. I’ll thank you to not misrepresent what I said. I do categorically deny that religion is the sole or even predominant cause of man’s suffering. If you aren’t saying that, then I am sorry. But, your statement seems that way. If you ARE saying that, then you are quite factually incorrect.
Bottom line. Israel has full right to put their government ANY place they want in their country. If that upsets people, basically that is too bad. Maybe the Palestinians might claim our belongs in LA because they don’t like it it D.C? See how utterly stupid that sounds? They have every right to do that, and other governments have every right to locate their own embassies in that chosen spot. The reaction of the Palestinians in Gaza is an act of war, and they were dealt with appropriately.
Yes, Doug, you are an aniti theist. To bad for ya. You drag religion into every comment you make, even if it has no relation to it.
“The first event triggered the second event.”
So, that makes the second event justifiable? That’s totally ignorant. In fact, that is how terrorist work. We are all scared of some “reaction” that we roll over and show our bellies.
For what this is worth, Doug? I didn’t vote for Donald Trump. I went with the Constitution Party myself. But, YOUR entire conversation is centered around two things. 1. I hate religion and 2. I hate Trump.
All of your railing does not change the fact that Jerusalem is Israel’s Capitol. Our embassy belongs there. Storming that fence was an act of war. It was dealt with. Now, is the plight of some couple of million Palestinians living in Gaza a thing of concern? Of course it is. But, Israel could move to Topeka, and they would still be there, and they would still be pissed of and storming fences. It would just be somebody else’s fence.
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Actually, if it were true, it would be 1. I hate Trump, 2. I hate religion… but neither claim is accurate. 1. I dislike Trump being president. 2. I believe that religion as a whole need not be so complex. But that’s between me and the Almighty.
The debate seems to be the evangelical flag constantly needing to be waved by conservatives when expressing politics… making them vulnerable to being challenged in following their Christian ideology. It’s rather akin to people who express their I.Q. being genius level only to suffer from the less-smart the eternal teasing in pointing out the intellectual shortcomings the flesh is heir to.
Yep.. any country can plop their embassy anywhere they want to (more or less). But sometimes just because they can doesn’t mean they should. There used to be a reason the embassy was where it was.
I might encourage you to check out this link… which, by the way, goes to a credible news source, in spite of being accused of reporting facts liberally. Rather interesting.
https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/24/middleeast/donald-trump-us-embassy-israel-explainer/index.html
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“The debate seems to be the evangelical flag constantly needing to be waved by conservatives when expressing politics”
For what it’s worth? I actually about agree with that.
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Hit enter too soon. Read the link. Interesting, and seems mostly factual. It still fails to negate the absolute right for Israel to do what they did, and for any other country to do likewise. Doug, do you really think keeping that embassy in Tel Aviv will solve anything? No, it won’t. Bottom line is the whole issue is that the surrounding countries want Israel to simply disappear. Couch it in Palestinian “rights,” or whatever you want, but they won’t be happy until the Nation of Israel is no more. So, let’s say Israel did simply go away(which it won’t, but that is another conversation. Will there then be peace? Of course not. The Palestinians will still be on the margins, only it would be the Arabs nations doing it.
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A fair reply, Wally… but I also agree with all that. I am not one bit disputing Israel’s right in the region to exist. They decided to move their national capitol.. that’s their choice if they own the land. I’m just saying Netanyahu is happy as hell because he has a claim on Jerusalem now that we’ve legitimized that claim. This all has NOTHING to do with “a country can make their capitol anyplace they wish”.
This likely matters not to anyone, but years back I always had a reasonable opinion of Netanyahu through our administrations… except when Obama was forging the Iran deal a couple years back. Somehow Netanyahu got an invite to speak directly to Congress to try an head off any Congressional support. It didn’t work but I thought at the time is was a rather thumbing of Obama (his visit was not a state visit of any kind; he came here not to see Obama) and the speech in Congress an overt end-run to by-pass Obama. I thought it crass at the time, but so be it; that’s politics. Then as Trump was meandering in his usual own world of ignorance about leaving the Iran deal.. Netanyahu pops up in some televised presentation.. in English (obviously for Trump) that somehow he has revealed all this Iranian hanky-panky of covert Iranian nuke development… when in fact everyone knew all that… the intel people knew all that… and Kerry knew all that, which is why they built for that possibility in the verification process of the deal. In other words, Netanyahu was presenting nothing, but making it a big deal to sway Trump. Sorry… they guy has his own legal problems at home… and now he’s proven a self-serving manipulator and laughing at America.
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Doug, stating things you wish to be true doesn’t make them facts. Open your mind a bit and start reading sources you don’t normally do. You might not agree, but at least you’ll understand the context and be able to have more productive conversations on this subject. As it is your bias against Trump and desire to blame everything on the embassy move, is preventing you from thinking rationally.
Have you heard of the terms “The Great March of Return” and Nakba Day? Give them a google and you’ll see the protests are long standing and have nothing to do with the Embassy move.
You’ve address none of the questions I bought up and dismissing web links as not credible because you don’t like their viewpoints is a non starter. You need to state what it is you disagree with in them (if you even read them) and why your research proves them wrong.
The obvious answer to your question of why didn’t someone do something to avoid this latest skirmish is because they play out perfectly as to how Hamas and other extremists want them to. The don’t give a crap if Palestinians die for the simple fact is that it helps their cause in making Israel look evil. They know the media will play stories demonizing Israel and the useful idiots of the world will suck up every word of it.
My name is Tricia by the way, not Julie.
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Now THAT I apologize.. Tricia.. NOT Julie (if it matters, I had your avatar flowing in my head).
I guess you are correct… I did not pick apart the opinions from your links. But.. I did read them. At the risk of seeming… oh, I dunno… inflexible in my thought process(?)… generally speaking I prefer to work with some measure of facts. You were stating that Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian terrorist world had embedded armed demonstrators to provoke IDF responses in order to create martyrs.. and that there is proof of this, and proof of that.. and you cited as your links simply other source of opinions.. not sure I saw any facts supported by the more traditional mainstream sources I usually refer to. In essence you are suggesting that you are supporting your opinions based on the opinions of others who are selling their opinion as facts.
Look… I am totally aware of all the claims and accusations being made by Israel regarding the demonstrators.. or, “demonstrators”. And honestly, they are not unusual or not believable because the Palestinians in years past have indeed set their own people up to die to provoke a deadly response in an attempt to manipulate public opinion against Israel. No question… and likely was also expected as this embassy thing unfolded. But thus far I am not aware of a credible investigation in this case… so far. The question exists that who would conduct such an investigation and would they be believed.
There is an observation to be made that the region where the many major religions have spawned always seems to assign so little value to life.
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Well good to know you had my avatar on your brain, I’d hate to be forgotten! 😉
To my knowledge no one is disputing that armed terrorists were part of the mix of 40,000 + people rushing Israel’s border and setting off bombs, shooting guns, etc…. Even the msm sites acknowledge this, they just wanted the IDF to somehow have magically have known which part of the armed mob was friend or foe, an impossible task. Or perhaps they should have stopped each one and politely asked? And back to your original question as to why no one prevented this, what the heck was Israel supposed to do about thousands of people amassing at their borders? Ask them to leave? There was not a darn thing they could do except provide ample warning as to what would happen to border rushers, attempt non lethal tactics first and then eventually subdue things when they got out of control.
There is no country in the world that would have let 10s of thousands of people rush their borders without taking lethal actions, whether they involved terrorists or not.
As I said in my post, I’m sorry people died that day and for their loved ones left to grieve. This will only continue until the world universally condemns groups like Hamas and defends Israel’s right to exist and is why I speak out about it.
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And you ask the probing question for sure.. if they knew all this in advance then exactly what were they supposed to do about it? Well.. for one thing when I suggested that it was aimed at BOTH sides of the dispute. There is very little moral responsibility on both side in this dispute. As I said.. much of this entire thing had to do with the reasoning and timing of it all… and then the whiz-bang public celebration. It was “just” an embassy relocation.. NOT a formal acknowledgment of opening diplomatic relations for the first time, Tricia. The visual was way off.. although apparently NOT for Israel. But.. we can certainly agree no one important will listen to anything either of us have said. 🙂
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We do agree on that Doug, that and that the senseless loss of life is tragic. That’s about the only thing but it’s a good thing to be in agreement on.
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Funny Wally, I didn’t vote for Trump either and have frequently criticized him in this blog but apparently I’ve been going on a diatribe on all the good things he’s done.
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Yeah….I know huh? I will be the last guy to be waving the Trump flag, but as stupid as he might be, he’s actually getting some stuff right. This is one of those things.
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Doug, did you know that Hamas has confirmed that 50 of the 64 dead protestors were terrorists? Did you also know that they made an official declaration long before Trump announced the embassy move to launch a series of coordinated border attacks against Israel? And that they had called for 100,000 people to rush the fence during this most recent attack and that it did not just ignite on Monday, it’s been going on for weeks? Granted only 40,000 showed up but that’s still an awful lot of border crashers which could, in any legal sense, be considered an act of war.
Did you also know that Israeli forces issued numerous warnings over several days about shooting those that crash the border? That they fired tear gas and rubber bullets before resorting to lethal force? That these “innocent” protestors also set off bombs, opened fire at the IDF and took cover among regular civilians to protect themselves, i.e., they used them as human shield? That when one protestor was interviewed and asked what he would do once inside the border said, “Whatever is possible, to kill, throw stones”?
I ask because you seem completely unaware of the history the violence in Gaza and the outsized role Hamas, an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, is playing in this and the violence the protestors themselves are using.
I can respect and respond to other views on this, but not if they are uninformed. Read up on stuff outside of your normal news sites, you’ll be surprised how much is out there that you’re not being told.
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/262200/palestinians-gaza-dying-photo-op?utm_source=tabletmagazinelist&utm_campaign=ff39123381-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_05_14&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c308bf8edb-ff39123381-207798349
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/hamas-gaza-protest-martyrdom-operation/
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/palestinian-protests-trump-embassy-move-to-jerusalem-not-cause/
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Reblogged this on Citizen Tom and commented:
Given the alternatives, we are lucky with respect to the nations that sit on our border. Canada is a relatively peaceful country. We have our differences, but neither Canada nor the United States have much interest in changing or robbing the other. We each are content to trade for what we want from the other.
Mexico is a relatively poor country. The Spanish people who settled Mexico, and the Indians who were already there have never quite gotten things together. Since we have a long border with Mexico, the troubles that beset Mexico tend to seep into our nation. I also suppose some Mexicans still harbor resentment against the United States. Even though no one now alive remembers those wars, Texas and later the United States once warred with Mexico. Both Texas and the United States seized huge amounts of land that once belonged to Mexico. Anger over that seizure still sits on top of the cultural and racial animosities that some people seem prey to. Nevertheless, many Mexicans have become good citizens of the United States. So the hatred doesn’t seem to amount to so much it cannot be overcome.
Israel is not so blessed. Currently, Gaza, the West Bank, Syria, and Lebanon provide havens for blood-thirsty terrorists, including some who are quite able and willing to shoot missiles into Israel. The notion that the government of Israel should do virtually nothing about terrorists who hate the people of Israel enough to kill them is obscene. Yet there are Americans who inexplicably have that attitude. So please go see what Tricia has to say about it.
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Many thanks Tom for the reblog.
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Tom, Tricia
The Israel vs. Palastine is a catastrophe because of two inflexible cultures. A psychologist might analyze it to be the result of catastrophe thinking, in my opinion.
“Flexibility in being able to question and change these beliefs and values is often the key to managing catastrophic thinking.”
In other words, there will never be a resolution to this conflict because both cultures are inflexible.
What is happening now is Gaza is reacting the same way as depressed caged animals react and their keepers.
They both are playing the same game kids play called King of the Hill. Israel just moved the USA flag to the top for now. How long it will stay there, is useless trying to predict the future.
In other words, unless they both change their cultures, the catastrophe will continue for another 3000 years in my opinion.
Perhaps what is a better answer is for the UN is to send an army of psychologists to end this endless catastrophe?
Regards and good will blogging.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-the-face-adversity/201103/catastrophic-thinking.
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Hey Scattered, thanks for your comment. I guess I’m just not seeing where Israel needs to change its culture. Gaza is a catastrophe because of Hamas who rules it and puts destroying Israel above actually creating a productive and safe society for the Palestinians to thrive in. It incites hate, fear and violence among the people and uses money that could be put to good use in building a healthy economy towards war with Israel.
I am a big fan of psychiatric help though, even partake in it myself occasionally. 🙂
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Decades ago when I was taking a college class for my behavioral sciences degree I did a report on exactly this thing.. that both sides of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is more an issue now of a cultural perpetual inertia as a result of a kind of mass catastrophic mindset. Obviously most of this is theory.. but there’s enough substance to suggest a kind of mass cultural phenomenon. But even in regards to the entire region itself beyond just Israel and the Palestinians, the entire region going back to antiquity is filled with tribal conflicts. Within every Arab country… if the central government falls or is replaced.. the subsequent chaos that reigns is always “old tribes settling old scores” going back a thousand years. I certainly have no solution but because it seems cultural that’s the first hurtle in any peacemaking process.
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@Doug, You stated,
“a cultural perpetual inertia as a result of a kind of mass catastrophic mindset. Obviously most of this is theory.”
I believe we are long past describing the Middle East as theory. The core reason is vanity as explained in Ecclesiastes 3000 years ago. Each tribal mindset thinks they are better or more entitled to someone else and have closed, inflexible, personal or religious beliefs ingrained in their childhood. It takes a hundred years for each generation to develop leaving no room in time to educate either side to Christianity main precept. Treat others same as you would treat yourself.
The only solution in my opinion is to form an Unities Nations of Religion and invite every religion to start, start, start, to change to understand we Christianity that we all have the same maker and set aside vanity.
Proverb 22:2. Rich and poor live side by side. God makes them all.
In my opinion, every religion should become a subsidiary of Christianity precepts. For example, Muslim Christians Sect, Jewish Christians Sect, Hindu Christians Sect, etc. etc.
Perhaps in time, another one hundred years from the day we all start teaching Christianity to our children, the world might be a better place.
Regards and good will blogging..
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Some might argue that Christianity should follow at its base more a.. say, Hindu-base or Islamic-base. Not sure Christianity would be accepted as some altruistic core value. Much of the Middle East discourse is in fact, because of religious diversity. A UN of religion is an interesting perspective.
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Looks good on paper fellas, but the idea of a ‘one world religion,’ even with the very best of intentions, is merely the seed plot where the final antichrist will take his seat, and wield his treachery.
There is no treachery of the kind in BIBLICAL Christianity, where the grace of God is unequalled and paramount.
So the UN of religion? very Very Very, bad idea.
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I agree with CS. Look at the UN now, a cesspool of corrupt, bigoted fools. I’ll pass on any sort of religious instruction from them thank you.
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There will be chaos until the end. Goes all the way back to Esau and Jacob.
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Sorry.. I’m a little confused here. On one side you are accusing her of supporting Jewish behavior toward Palestinians… then in the next sentence you are accusing her of being an anti-Semite racist?
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Thanks Doug, . I tossed his comment already. It’s the same ugly commenter as earlier who used to post under the name David. Don’t bother responding to him, he’s gone way off the deep end of conspiracy theory nonsense and there are mental issues involved. It’s very sad as he used to be a friend.
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Sorry he used to be a friend and turned to the dark side. Tough to loose a friend whatever the reason.
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